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What’s Happening With The 70CES Yamaha? http://ww.w.hpbc.ca/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4531 |
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Author: | Hounddog [ January 11th, 2024, 11:05 am ] |
Post subject: | What’s Happening With The 70CES Yamaha? |
Information and interest has all disappeared in the last few years. The original parts pistons, cylinder head, tuner have not been available for several years. The entry numbers in Europe for T850 have dropped but the class is still running. Racers are allowed to use some aftermarket parts. https://www.facebook.com/10005711702326 ... 665056415/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIreYw-vqQ4 The original 70CES was 70 hp @ 6500 rpm. Many people racing in SLT mod class in APBA modified some of the 70CES tiller motors . Fast Fred and Evan were keen on 70CES mods for several years. https://www.boatracingfacts.com/forums/ ... aha-70-ces There is an aftermarket billet aluminum cylinder and billet tuner available and two ring pistons similar to the original pistons are available. The rest of the motor is stock replacement parts and available online. https://hpbc.ca/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3672&start=10 https://tsrproducts.com.au/products/yam ... t-head-kit https://www.marmom-marine.com/parts_cat ... 0ce_94.pdf I know a few people in Ontario, Canada have played with modifying the stock 6H3 powerhead to improve its performance. Questions: How much can you safely cut the stock 6H3 cylinder head and what compression can you get? Are there other head gaskets that are thinner in thickness? Did the 90 hp carbs add any advantage? What tuner did you use? Did you ever dyno the powerhead? How much hp did it make? |
Author: | Hounddog [ January 11th, 2024, 6:33 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: What’s Happening With The 70CES Yamaha? |
Here is a good thread with a lot of conversation about the 70CES. https://www.boatracingfacts.com/forums/ ... aha-70-ces |
Author: | Hounddog [ January 14th, 2024, 12:31 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: What’s Happening With The 70CES Yamaha? |
I found this video of a 70 hp non oil injection Yamaha very educational. It shows disassembly, modular crank separation, carburetor fact finding, etc. I covers basically everything you should look at in a 70 hp Yamaha rebuild. This motor also has the later style carburetors and 2 ring pistons. It’s surprisingly undamaged outside for a saltwater motor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-NC4l-ko_M |
Author: | Roflhat [ January 18th, 2024, 3:34 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: What’s Happening With The 70CES Yamaha? |
Genuine Yamaha head gaskets are the only ones worth running. TSR use o rings which is a good concept but they're hopeless in practise, less than 10 hours on mine and water was getting into the head. TSR head is no good in my opinion. Have run the one piece, two piece, TSR head eventually got fed up and designed my own, with assistance from the legendary late Rolf Magne Sunde. I got 5 of them made, 1 for myself have sold 3 got one left. https://forgemarine.com/performance/p/70billet uses standard head gasket and my own water cover gasket You want around 170psi, two piece head is roughly 150psi, one piece upto 180psi. 90hp carbs do add some top end, the more modified your motor is the more you gain. But standard carbs aren't as restrictive as people say, Rolf managed 103mph with his 70ces on an F4 hull, setting the record at 101mph. Tuner I got a stainless replica of the original made, ran well but not as smooth internally as I'd like. Then I got a squared off tuner made, billet. Worked really well possibly more top end than original but not race compliant. Then a replica of the original made in billet which is what I run now. Tried a dyno once but melted the pistons. Was pushing timing too far, can't have more than 16 degrees on a thundercat, I know the F4 guys ran 21 on the two piece head and 18 odd on the one piece but myself and Rolf were discussing it and reckon the cdi has a curve which drops back down over 7k rpm. So if you're not hitting that then the timing is staying high not backing off, hence the melting pistons. These are very strong engines, but difficult to extract a lot of performance from. Very easy to do the wrong thing and lose power. Rolf taught me a lot about them although I suspect merely a fraction of what he knew |
Author: | Hounddog [ January 18th, 2024, 8:05 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: What’s Happening With The 70CES Yamaha? |
Roflhat wrote: These are very strong engines, but difficult to extract a lot of performance from. Very easy to do the wrong thing and lose power. First off thank-you for the post . There is a lot of information in your post. I purchased my 70CES brand new in 1995. It was delivered directly to me in the original box. It was the second version of the 70CES motor with the one piece cylinder head. I quoted your one line because it is absolutely 100 % TRUE! Like many people I had seen and read posts on the internet about the great performance of this motor in S850/F4 class. In T850 class it wasn’t that great and had equal performance to the OMC Formula E outboard. I spend the complete summer of 1997 testing that motor on our T850/EP Critchfield. I couldn’t get competitive class performance out of the motor so it wasn’t raced in 1997. I managed to get a fax number and a name Mr. Suzuki from Hydro Tec to the tech dept at Yamaha outboard in Japan. Mr Suzuki replied and sent me lots of technical information on the 70CES. First shock! The motor was 70 hp @ 6400 rpm. Not 100 hp as several posters said on the internet. I took the boat to a marina with a prop dyno. The motor was exactly 70 hp @ 6400 rpm. I got back tested with smaller diameter and smaller pitched props. It raced in 1998 and was very competitive. The speed record in UIM T850 was 68 mph and we could run very close to that record. Still have the 70CES and it is still 100% bone stock. It is know longer-competitive in our T850 class where the speeds are in the 75 mph range. Here is a thread years after about the 70CES. To your quote above ...this group have several different opinions and ideas about modifying the motor...BUT! Do they make the motor better, equal or maybe worse than the original motor from the Yamaha factory! https://www.screamandfly.com/showthread ... -70-Yamaha |
Author: | LittleCharger [ January 19th, 2024, 8:38 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: What’s Happening With The 70CES Yamaha? |
Roflhat wrote: Genuine Yamaha head gaskets are the only ones worth running. TSR use o rings which is a good concept but they're hopeless in practise, less than 10 hours on mine and water was getting into the head. TSR head is no good in my opinion. Have run the one piece, two piece, TSR head eventually got fed up and designed my own, with assistance from the legendary late Rolf Magne Sunde. I got 5 of them made, 1 for myself have sold 3 got one left. https://forgemarine.com/performance/p/70billet uses standard head gasket and my own water cover gasket You want around 170psi, two piece head is roughly 150psi, one piece upto 180psi. 90hp carbs do add some top end, the more modified your motor is the more you gain. But standard carbs aren't as restrictive as people say, Rolf managed 103mph with his 70ces on an F4 hull, setting the record at 101mph. Tuner I got a stainless replica of the original made, ran well but not as smooth internally as I'd like. Then I got a squared off tuner made, billet. Worked really well possibly more top end than original but not race compliant. Then a replica of the original made in billet which is what I run now. Tried a dyno once but melted the pistons. Was pushing timing too far, can't have more than 16 degrees on a thundercat, I know the F4 guys ran 21 on the two piece head and 18 odd on the one piece but myself and Rolf were discussing it and reckon the cdi has a curve which drops back down over 7k rpm. So if you're not hitting that then the timing is staying high not backing off, hence the melting pistons. These are very strong engines, but difficult to extract a lot of performance from. Very easy to do the wrong thing and lose power. Rolf taught me a lot about them although I suspect merely a fraction of what he knew Great info...you were very fortunate to have worked with Rolf, he wasn't as well know on this side of the pond. That's a very nice cylinder head, I assume the smallest pocket is the top, then the middle and finally the bottom? Are you running a little higher exhaust port height in the top cylinder as well...thanks for posting |
Author: | mattmak [ January 20th, 2024, 11:03 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: What’s Happening With The 70CES Yamaha? |
LittleCharger wrote: Great info... Agreed. Thanks, Seumas. Roflhat wrote: Tuner I got a stainless replica of the original made, ran well but not as smooth internally as I'd like. Then I got a squared off tuner made, billet. Worked really well possibly more top end than original but not race compliant. Then a replica of the original made in billet which is what I run now. You mention "not race compliant" for an iteration of your exhaust tuner.. What are your race rules/restrictions/specs? |
Author: | Roflhat [ January 22nd, 2024, 7:47 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: What’s Happening With The 70CES Yamaha? |
Rolfs knowledge never ceased to amaze me, he hand't worked on a 70ces since the 90's but knew all the port specs, timings, flywheel weight even the resistance of the ignition coils under the flywheel to the nearest ohm. Was always grateful for how much time he gave me, think he could tell I was as passionate about going fast as he was. |
Author: | Roflhat [ January 22nd, 2024, 7:52 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: What’s Happening With The 70CES Yamaha? |
Yep smallest cc top chamber then increasing towards the bottom. Have to say I'm not 100% on the port specs as Rolf did the porting work over in Norway. I was running to UIM spec, not any more as I have the 90hp carbs on and a few other trick bits like reed block stuffers. But over here they really do check to see if you are within spec, so the fact Rolf extracted 103mph from his is truly phenomanal. But he had a lot of tricks up his sleeve too, small clever things which are probably all worth less than 1% each but add up. There was another guy in Finland who actually beat Rolfs speed record but not by the 1.3% or whatever the UIM require to be enough?? Seems a bizarre rule to me Not sure if I'll attempt any more records, the safety factor becomes very apparent going towards 80mph on a thundercat. But I don't think I'll ever sell the 70ces |
Author: | Hounddog [ January 22nd, 2024, 9:08 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: What’s Happening With The 70CES Yamaha? |
Well your 78 mph speed in an SLT is superior to the record over here. That record below is also a modified Yamaha 52 cubic inch. We certainly have a lot to learn! SLT EXPERIMENTAL KILO APBA RECORD 67.13 MPH 4/5/2006 CRESCENT CITY, FL OUTBOARDS UNLIMITED EVAN GOLDBERG FAIRFIELD CT EVAN GOLDBERG FAIRFIELD CT AQUARIUS YAMAHA |
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