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We have all winter to discuss this. Please correct me on any technical mistakes. I’m just a Fridge tech. Please read this with everyone in mind, including people who haven’t raced yet. Don’t be hostile towards ideas here. I am simply brainstorming and making suggestions with you guys to help make the most people happy. Lets be constructive, and lets not get personal over the internet.

-Mod & stock. Why don’t we just start a second t-850 points chart. One will be our original one that pertains to our anything goes boats as they are, (I guess that isn’t considered mod, but it isn’t stock either. Honestly). Lets clear up semantics after we decide on something. And the other chart can be for some sort of spec’ed out engine, which by popularity sounds like it should probably be sst-60 specs. There aren’t any spec sst-60 engines in our group yet so I don’t think too many boats will be racing in it at the moment, but if we make the class then at least people can build up to making boats for that class in the future if they so choose to. This would mean that if you run the “anything goes” t-850 class then you don’t need to worry about people “inspecting” your engine. But if you run the spec’ed class, then you will be inspected, but only once a year for a 20$ head gasket as mentioned. But we can still all race together! Same old fun! But now, we can keep the engine spec partial people happy as well.
-cc vs compression. Compression release or not, in my case, my 49 was at about 130-140 psi all the time until erinsville. At erinsville I tried a much thinner head, and got right on 160psi. Shortly after running that head my engine blew. Then for dunnville we re-bored the cylinders and gained give or take .001” clearance on all cylinders. Went back to my old 130-140 psi head playing it safe. After some break in time, we found all cylinders to be at almost exactly 160psi! Conclusion: cc is the best way to check an engine (more accurately, cc and port hight to get the “volume of compression”). Compression alone doesn’t mean ANYTHING. But please DON’T WORRY. This cc and port checking would only happen if you wanted to run in the spec class.
- Checking out motors is fun! And souping them up is even more fun – it’s part of the hobby.
- Please remember there are TWO Elsey’s, and we are individuals.
-Specs and heads. So what is the cc spec on a topgunned 56 head? Is every cylinder head from top gun the same? I know they make 90% of the motors out there, but I would hope they would at least try and make their own personal boats better than the rest no? – that’s what competition/racing is!!! We cc’d ONE cylinder head for diagnostic purposes, (part of the fun for us is building the boats/engines), and I would be surprised if everyone had the same head. I’m sorry if I’m breaking a “bro code” by saying this, but the cc on that head was less than my 49’s. I don’t know much about 56r’s, but is that normal? Reminder, compression doesn’t mean anything, it’s the compression volume. But anyway, who cares about cc or compression in our non spec class? By majority it sounds like compression and cc’s don’t mean anything. As shown at dunnville right? It’s the driving skill!
-Splitting the field. The officials wouldn’t let us split it up, but only some of us wanted to split it up. We need to agree on something and make it official for next year. It WAS crazy out there with only 10 boats, not even 12. Ya rough water can give the slower guy a chance to keep ahead, but it can also give the faster guy an even further advantage. Running 12 boats on Waterford would be nearly impossible, the chute is only 6 boats wide (exaggerating). That’s just my opinion. Remember we are simply trying to agree on something, not put down other people’s ideas. I’m thinking 10 boats was a bit much, and 5 boats is boring. How about 8-9 max?
-Fuel. I’m pretty sure I smelt some race fuel out there at the end of the day on Sunday. Anyone else smell it? Maybe I was just going crazy. Not that I have a problem with it, nor do many others. What I need to know is: can I build my 2013 powerhead to run race fuel without anyone caring? (legal race fuel that is). I know just simply switching to race fuel is a safety cushion thing and won’t make you go faster, but if the engine is built for race fuel – that’s another thing entirely.
- The big picture. We are ALL doing this for the fun of it. But remember some people see fun in different ways. Some of us enjoy hanging out and talking about the race right after it happens. Some of us enjoy the competition and the fight for bragging rights. We all help each other and get along with each other too! So it’s a good gang of people to get together with anyway.
-Engine vs driving skill. Ya driving skill has been proven to be the true/best way to win a race. But once everyone learns how to drive then what? Just plain luck? I KNOWWWW it’s just for the fun, and I believe in that, but some people are trying to be competitive and win! The work, effort and engineering it takes to try and win is fun as well! So to keep the people who “enjoy trying to win” happy, lets just create a spec class for them. They get scored separately.
-??? Everyone was definitely smiling after the race. I think this is just a get-down-to-business time. And who is trashing other people’s theories??? I don’t think these kinds of things are happening here. This is just a discussion about the future of our class(es). And ya, no whining, (though I don’t think anyone has… yet).

Jake, tech inspection once per season is a nice thought...but what stops a guy from changing his powerhead before the last race of the season (to look legal)?

The T-class is the way it is NOT because we all wanted a way to cheat and run full mod motors but to make it easy for guys to run the class (both to race in the class and to police it). The weight, compression and competition rules where the chosen rules to enforce because they were easy to do and easy for everyone to understand. There are specific rules for the class...pages of them actually....

If you want a seperate class within the class than talk to Don and see what it takes to get it approved by TORC and CBF...and see who is interested in taking part. With regard to the spec's I was talking about the UIM provides specs for the 49, Yamaha CES and the SST60....unless something has changed there are no spec sheets for the standard 56. This makes it difficult to tech a motor when you don't have anything to judge it against..especially with the year to year block variations with OMCs. We could tech all the 850 boats now but there's only two boats that we have sheets for...yours and mine lol.

We are all out there having fun...no one ever said they didn't want to win. I think it's clear by the number of 56's out there that EVERYONE wants to win....some of us just don't care when we don't...

Jake thanks for your comments. I think there are a number of things we can do which tie in to many of the comments made by you and others on this thread. Boat count automatically solves one problem. By stock outboard rules a class must be split into heats when there are 12 or more boats. So if everyone shows up and races we have between 16 and 19 boats.
Waterford is a special case and smaller heats are allowed.
I think we should send a questionaire to each T850 racer. Part of the original plan was that each racer was to submit a information sheet on exactly what motor they were running. The forms are there and no one has done it. The class is split with people that don't want inspections and a spec motor and those that do. That question can be part of the questionaire. I get conflicting comments from people in the class. The same people are on both sides of the fence. By having them put it in writing clears up the problem.
I have suggested we decide on a spec 56 powerhead for those that want to run it. A T class racer can run it if they want to. It is up to them. So if we get 6 or more that commit then here is my idea. These motors will all be built to the choosen spec. Inspected and sealed prior to the 2013 season. That will give us 6 or more motors that are the same. When we have the boat count of 12 or more these racers are in the same heat. I firmly believe that the spec motor will compete with current motors even if there in the same heat. As for points. That too can be part of the questionaire. Many say their not racing for points. Fine, then they don't get points, but have it in writing that it is not important to them. The spec motor will make it easy for new people. They know the motor is a competitive, long lasting, trouble free and cost effective power head.

Jake another way you could do this is even easier. Let's see how many T850 racers we have that would be willing to run either a 49 OMC or a Yamaha. We have complete specs for both.
DOC has a Yamaha
Jim has a Yamaha
Dave W has a 49 OMC
You have a 49 OMC
Your dad can build a 49 OMC
Craig Fraser has a 49 OMC
Larry has a 49 OMC
John Has a 49 OMC

That is 8 boats

Just a thought.

In the interest of keeping things simple, less work for Don in terms of looking at another sub class to CBF and lastly less headache for the TORC scorers etc. A simple solution maybe to create an award that goes to the racer with the highest points running a spec motor within the current class rules. In order to be eligible for the award you have to meet the criteria as determined (perhaps the group that is interested in the award can determine). Points would be tracked and adjusted accordingly based on only the eligible racers respective finishing positions, our group would track this not TORC. The group can determine inspections and criteria.

If one feels they need the class to be CBF recognized to feel they achieved something then this will not work.

I will be building a motor over the winter to go after the Muskoka Rad Shop award next year. Technically I won it this year cause Rick never showed up at half the races, but he did beat me at all the races he did show up at so he can have it this year.

Cheers,

First of all, a huge thanks goes out to Hounddog for working hard consistantly to build this class!
Also, to all of the guys (Scott and Shiela W, Angelo, Craig Fraser, Larry, John, Elseys, James Cole, etc) for supporting us and helping out even though they arent racing... this year. My family and I have had an awesome experience with racing and have met many really great people.

To Paul Kryskow of Top Gun Marine... He has been so generous to let me run an awesome motor this year! If I didn't have that motor, I would have been in the same boat as Rick Cole, or worse! We can all agree that Paul has gone above and beyond this year to help out so many of us! I am quite happy to see him run out front, (but nobody else! ) and I believe that could be the case regardless of what motor he is running.

Boat Count Per Heat: Yes!!! I would have liked to split the boats up on Sunday! I am just giving you you my personal opinion, and I may be a bit of a wuss? (I am good with it) It's really rough out there! I also believe that fewer racers will show if we are running a heat of 12 boats. Some of us may be concerned about wrecking our boats and getting Jimmy'd and would feel much safer running 5-7 boats. If we split the class for mod and stock, this may solve that issue and then guys that have slower boats will feel they can show up and be competitive too.

T750??: I have also concidered running this class for next year. The boat count and speeds could be pretty manageble for the newer or more faint of heart racer...

That's it for now!
Dave.

The solution is boat count. As the Gun said show up and race. If we have the boats it is very easy to put heats together for close competitive racing. It is easy to say let's do this and that. It is much more difficult to make it work. I suggest we start with the questionaire and see what people will commit to in writing. I is common for people to say they feel one way when talking to certain people and the switch 180 degree when they talk to others. Another factor in T is inexperience.
Newer people will talk to others and totally believe what they are told. If it is a negative then they take it as true. Here is some points that based on my years of experience do not make any major difference in performance of these motors.

Fuel... at 160 lbs compression the only 100 octane fuel that burns cooler is av gas. The others burn hotter! The lower the octane the BETTER. You get a better bang. The lower the compression the lower the octane. It is very common for racers to run year old gas in low compression race motors for that reason. If you like the smell and the extra cost go for it. If you have an illegal higher compression motor it is a dead give away. In our motors there is no advantage.

Cylinder heads.. I ran more heads in testing that anyone. Here are my findings. A difference of 10 to 15 pounds [ 145 to 160] compression does NOTHING! The motors like about 145 to 150. Think about your own motor. There is no question that the production [sand] 56 is a little better. Not hugh but better. The SST 60 block at 160 compress is NOT as good. At 180 the SST 60 is MUCH BETTER! But is is all top end.

-Here are my thoughts, these items are usually better hashed out in person first of all at a meeting.
-Boat racing has gone sideways trying to introduce and spec the heck outta it (look at the US and canada previously, history can repeat)
-Boat count as pointed out is key, I'm sure if we had 11-12 boats we would heavily consider splitting, but not at 10, sorry, there are no classes any where in the world that split at any less than 11-12, I would hate to see it turn boats away but this is a fact of racing and it is what it is, this has only been a problem once, usually fewer boats by nature... if there are more than great we split, was just a number we ended up with, get your friends out!!! This won't change so not worth discussion.
-Rough water is what this class is, they are V-bottoms cutting a 4' swath in the water, dunnville is the worst with the current and wind etc, there are many other classes if you don't like rough, not being a weeener, just saying thats the truth, its always been this way, part of the excitement and talent of the class!!!
- You already have two classes, I suggest if you want a spec class use 49CI (750) and use that as a starter/spec class for those who want one and leave 56 (850) for those who want to play and blow stuff up!!!
-The success of this class is based on its openess as most are lake boats as well and guys like to play...., so play! If you want to ban SST60 motors than get together with everyone and talk about it, agree that you will stick to a certain area and go for it. I'm sure gun will still build a dope 56 to come out with, same with gig... than its on.
-No race fuel will limit who is running high comp Get a fuel tester to test for octane/additives and set a max. No one can run unfair high comp at 91 octane

I have a idea give everyone a ribbon, just like they do in kids sports everyone is a winner

Ok As an outsider my head is spinning with all of this..... I am getting more confused. My plan is to build a boat to run T 850 over the winter and at the moment, I am not sure where to even start with all this talk. it sounds like it is getting to complicated.

I loved seeing 10 boats on the course this past weekend from shore it was super exciting, and to me that is what racing is all about 5 or 6 boats looks like a parade. with 10 boats and rough water it increased the chances of a lead change and drivers making a mistake after all it is supposed to be a drivers class. Dunnville was the best T racing I have seen from shore. I am super excited to get out there with that many boats!