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i agree with Doc too, weight and compression should keep a cap on it

We should maybe pose that as a question to new drivers....I would think it would be a benifit to have a mix of experience and rookies. That way there is someone to watch at the start (like you mentioned Jim) and even just milling and the general rules of the road. This also makes the final more representative of the class...you would have the six fastest boats not just three from the experienced guys and three from the rookies battling in the final.

With regard to T850's in the T750 class...at our Maple Lake gathering LC and I were running T750 boats (locked in a heated battle I might add) and Hydroid Jr literally drove between us (in my Voodoo...the last place one...) and had half a lap on us in a lap!! This was his first time in an 850 boat lol (I know it wasn't a real race situation but...). I do agree that if new guys feel more comfortable running in the 750 class that should be an option and it might be a good spot to get some laps in without too much pressure.

[/quote]
With regard to T850's in the T750 class...at our Maple Lake gathering LC and I were running T750 boats (locked in a heated battle I might add) and Hydroid Jr literally drove between us (in my Voodoo...the last place one...) and had half a lap on us in a lap!! This was his first time in an 850 boat lol (I know it wasn't a real race situation but...). I do agree that if new guys feel more comfortable running in the 750 class that should be an option and it might be a good spot to get some laps in without too much pressure.[/quote]

It's that damn last place 65 mph Yamaha VooDoo again! Little Charger's T750 did quite well against the new T850 guys in Dunnville last year. Some of the T850 were faster, but Paul had a skill edge. We have a few slower T850 boats interested in racing. These are the cottage type Deltas, VooDoos and Checkmates. The owners tell me they run 53 to 56 mph. Based on how Little Charger ran all last year, I think it would make for a good heat. The good T750's will have a bit more top end and the T850 will have more punch out of the corners.

As with everything we do in T class, it is up to the group in question. We offer suggestions and they decide what they want to do.

It's that damn last place 65 mph Yamaha VooDoo again! [/quote]

Sneaky fast....

Clarkson on T-boat speed...

Some very important facts about speeds and the motors.
I heard this comment again this weekend. Here it is.
I had a super fast boat that would blow by any of the race boats on the lake that had the same motor.
Question: Did you ever race this boat?
Answer: No.
Race boats and laker racers are two different set ups. Its the same as a Bonniville Salt Flats car to a Nascar running on a 3/4 mile track.
OVAL RACING IS ABOUT QUICKNESS AROUND THE OVAL NOT JUST STRAIGHTAWAY SPEED. Cornering speed and acceleration are more important. A boat capable of 70 mph will be lucky to average 60 mph on a 1 mile course.

Now lets review the motors in T850. What they are, what they were designed for, and how they perform in the class.

SST 60
It stands for super stock tunnel. It will develop 90 to 100 hp and turn 8500 rpm. Its power range is between 6800 and 7700.
The KEY word is TUNNEL. A tunnel at 90 mph has a total weight of approximately 25 lbs. That's why tunnels blow over so easy. Same as throwing a sheet of plywood into the wind. If the front edge comes up the sheet blows back at you. Same is true for a tunnel boat. The porting is such that the SST 60 motor needs light drag and 180 lbs of compression to work. The difference in the mile record speeds for a V bottom compared to a tunnel are large. Example EP V bottom is 70 mph and SE tunnel is in the 90's [92 I think] That is the same motor on each boat. The shocker is SST 60, more power, nose cone, more modern props and boats and the mile record is only 96. That is a comparison of basically a fishing motor to a race motor and 49 cubic inch to 56 cubic inch. So for a SST 60 motor to dominate T Class it needs 180 lbs compression and a very light boat. Legal weight 725 lbs. and 160 lbs compression drop this motor back to the 75 to 80 hp range.

MOD YAMAHA
The motor was developed to race on Thunder Cat Tunnels. The X class has no minimum weight. The Mod 70 yamahas have disappeared from X Class because they were not competitive with the other X motors including the SST 60. You can port, squeeze or mod it all you want. The basic problem remains. The rotating mass, crank, rods and pistons is too heavy and the coils and trigger assembly break down with high RPM. You need a light T boat to beat a stock 70 on the course.

Fishing Motors
These motors with stock porting will turn 7000 and they have TORQUE. That is what gets you out of the corner. They develop approximately 75 to 80 hp with our rules and unlike a the motors above you can use all the power. Even the full compression SST 60 motor can't turn 7200 on the oval on a T boat unless you run a very small wheel. When that motor is turning less than 6500 rpm it is developing LESS HORSEPOWER than the fishing motor. Here is a true story. Blake Roque was racing SST 60 at Dunnville. His engine builder errored and built him a fishing motor powerhead not an SST 60 powerhead. In SST 60 they do LeMans starts. On the first day racing Blake lead every race for the first 2 or three laps. He would get passed once the field spread out. He thought his gearcase was tighting up because he could only turn 7300 rpm. REASON WAS STOCK FISHING MOTOR. What this shows is that a STOCK FISHING MOTOR OUT PERFORMS THE RACE VERSION UP TO 7000 RPM! Now relate that to T Class were the motor can only get to 7000 rpm range.
Bottomline is you will need to spend a lot of money for very little, if any advantage. Spend the money on a PROP. It can make a 5 mph difference.

Legal and illegal
The motor is either one or the other. Legal means 100% legal. Illegal can just have 1 fault or many faults. So don't start saying that so and so is more illegal than you are. Your both illegal period. The 100% legal guy doesn't want to race either one of you.

Great post Hdog!... a succinct descriptive of class engine types, performance elements and comment re legal/illegal. Hdog has expressed this before in various other posts/threads, this sumarizes salient points.

Suggestion to HPBC: can another topic be created to capture 'white paper' posts, to capture authoritative posts limited to specific racing classes(eg: T, Drag)? This would not be open for general comment/humour/vague opinion/questions, but as a reference source(eg: hulls, engines, props, set-up,...other technical).
Reference material like Hdog's post can be captured which otherwise over time gets lost in the noise.
Authoritative members would manage this: Hdog for T, RBT(?) for drags, someone (Andrew) for hydro/r'bout, HBC/Heuninck for Tcat. They would update/edit as new information comes to light. Once established, little additional work required.
This idea is not original, other forums have a 'white paper' section.
Thoughts?....maybe this T thread will suffice

That's a good idea Erik...I had that same issue with the BIG T thread on FBC...It took forever to find the info/part number or whatever you were searching for. It'll be hard for me to keep my mouth shut (humour/vague opinion lol) but I think it's worth doing if Don et al would spend the time to do it. I think it's important though to follow the FACT rule...any talk of specific legal or illegal motors/boats etc. will just promp replys and muddy the facts. The info on which motors to build and how (like what parts you need to make a Yamaha 70 work) was invaluable. We can keep threads like this to go back and forth on and even refer to the tech thread...but keep the opinion here.

There was also a suggestion of Racer Profiles....any interest in that? T racers, Drags, SO, Tcats...who you are, what you run, pictures...like an elaborate readers ride....

Now...if a modified motor is slower than a legal motor than why are we concerned with mod stuff? I say go nuts if that's the case...

And...the 100% legal guy (which I believe I still am..) DOES want to race ANYONE. This year's field looks just like last year's except there are more racers (and Jim got WAY faster)...and everything worked well last year. As stated above the limit of 160lbs of compression keeps an SST60 motor to about 80hp...that would hold true for ANY of the T motors modified or legal. So I think it's most important that we enforce the compression limit and weight because that is what will ACTUALLY keep the class tight on performance. If the fishin' motors are competitive with illegal motors than there shouldn't be anyone complaining (there hasn't been anyone complaining to date anyways)...AND it is RACING so in order to be competitive you need to be at the limit of the rules anyway, guys can't expect to take their lake setup and expect to run with the fast guys.

I like the idea of a bunch of threads specific to the thundercat hulls, t boat hulls, engines for the specific classes, but I prefer the open threads that allow people to be critical (not offensive), question, and add opinions from their own perspective. I believe in the end you will get a better product and this encourages input into the specific thread. An example of this is the mod 50 thread on BRF, tons of good info on that thread and alot of additional information is drawn out by people's questions. As soon as you limit the input to a thread you end up with a dead thread or the potential for bias information.